In discussing this with a few people I thought this could make an interesting debate. Plus, I am curious to see if we can have an actual discussion without beating up those who disagree. Remember as this section says, to debate the ideas and not the person behind them!
So here is the video and Wiki info from the other thread. Discuss.
There is a certain etiquette that must be followed for fans that wish to throw octopuses onto the ice.[3]
Beforehand, an octopus should be boiled for at least 20 minutes on high heat with a little lemon juice and white wine. This will mask the creature's odor as well as reducing the amount of slime. A raw dead thrown octopus would result in a smelly ball that would stick to the ice upon impact and possibly leave an inky stain, while a well-boiled octopus will bounce and roll across the surface of the ice.
After the octopus has been properly prepared it must be smuggled into the ice arena, as it is against the law in Detroit (and other NHL cities) for a fan to throw anything onto the ice during a game. A preferred method is to wrap the octopus in plastic (a trash bag or a large Ziploc bag will do) and then wrap the package around one's middle section to give the appearance of a beer belly.
The most appropriate time to throw an octopus onto the ice is after the national anthem is sung or after the Red Wings have scored a goal. The octopus must be thrown onto the ice surface in an area that is clear of all players. It is never acceptable to aim for opposing players. Tactics are also used to protect the identity of octopus-throwers from arena security. It is common practice for the hurler to ask the surrounding people to stand up with him to shroud the task in anonymity.
Experienced throwers grasp the octopus around the middle part of the tentacles with the head hanging down near the thrower's knee and then swings the octopus with an overarm motion. Holding the octopus by the ends of its tentacles prior to the throw may result in the head of the octopus breaking off during the wind-up.
After successfully participating in this peculiar tradition, the octopus thrower is left with a tell-tale indicator: stinky hands. It is advisable to bring along a wet wipe and a slice of lemon to assist in removing the odor.
I don't like to be the first person to post when I do the OP in a debate, so I will post my thoughts later.
Last edited by LadyZ on Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
Edited by LadyZ on Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:37 pm: clarified post title.
Ok maybe I should read the other posts as I have to admit I didn't really read carefully. I am not sure the problem or what to debate lol. I watched the video and it looks like a good tradition to me. I mean isn't it the traditions of a team that fans want and love. I know for myself being a KU fan there is a photo of fans waving the wheat which is done at the end of the game, well if we win LOL, and if someone fouls out from 1937 and is tradition. Is it the best sportsmanship to wave someone goodbye?? Probably not but it's Kansas and wheat lol. It'll continue and is the most awesome sight to see and the best feeling to do at the end of a game as the band plays. I have no issue with the octopus. Congrats to your team PBB! I don't watch hockey but know what a great feeling it is when your team wins the big one.
I'll just cut 'n' paste something I posted last night while under the influence. (I did correct the plural rather than possessive error though Z. ) It may not be the most eloquent of responses, but it sums up what I think about it ... and the people who do it:
Smirky Whiskertwitch :
I can't help but think about the entire life of the octopi amounting to nothing more than some (biblical term censored) ignoramus's idea of a tribute to the hockey gods...and not only the life of the octopi, but the life of every living thing that sustained it to get it to the point where it could be flung like garbage to the ice of some stupid (biblical term censored) hockey arena ... and how some people just don't get what an aberration that is.
Last edited by Rubberboots on Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:07 am; edited 1 time in total
No, MST, this has nothing to do with any other posts or with the Stanley Cup, which is why I put it here.
I admit at first I thought it was a cute tradition at first. I love fun traditions like that, even when they aren't necessarily for good reasons like when Saints fans wore the paper bags on their heads .
But when thinking about it, and talking to a couple of people, I now feel differently...I am against sports type of hunting and fishing, you know, where it is strictly for fun and trophies. I have no problem with it if you are going to eat it; to me that's what they're there for, but why make them suffer unnecessarily, that is cruel IMO. Take what you need and leave the rest. So to raise these creatures for the purpose of throwing them out onto the gym floor, is uncalled for to me. Why not make rubber octopi to sell for this purpose? It would be a lot more hygienic as well. They could even make them stink! Seems like a no brainer of a compromise to me.
Note I am no animal activist or anything. I eat meat every day. I don't pay attention to how it's raised too much; I am not going to stop eating beef because of how the farm is or whatever. I just don't feel right about killing an animal unless it's for food or for your own protection (snakes etc). I can see the attraction of trophy hunting even if I don't agree with it (and at least with hunting, the meat is usually used, I have no issues with having fun while you get it!). I have to say I don't get the attraction of throwing a dead critter out on the ice like trash, raising them for that purpose, etc. What a waste (for everyone but the fish market who is selling them...no surprise to me that the market was the one to start it).
I definitely believe that people are above animals, but the way we treat them sometimes makes that a very thin line.
I don't watch hockey and I didn't watch the video on this thread. Until I read that first post, I've never even heard of that. It grosses me out, so I don't really feel like looking into it further. I just wanted to say that a lot of people do a lot of very weird things because "everyone else does it."
IMHO the throwing of it on the ice IS a tradition... but in most other sports and arenas the HOME team is penalized for such antics...where I am from we used to throw oranges on the field to symbolize WE are going to the Orange Bowl...but it cost our team in penalties.*I* did not throw Oranges but our fans did,I don't believe it ever cost us a game for doing it but they used to announce there would be a penalty following any Oranges thrown onto the field.
I knew about the octopi thing for a long time...I didn't know that there was a reason behind it until I inquired into it today. I guess I just never really cared. I don't care if people do it, I am sure there isn't a shortage of octopi and I am not the PETA supporter here so makes no difference to me. I am all about tradition and really liked that part of it. I didn't watch the video or read all of what Z posteds so I don't know if it said in there the original reason behind the throwing of the octopi. I found out today that it years ago it was because it took 8 games to get the cup (8 wins) and since the octopus have 8 legs it just came about...I think that is correct but not for sure.
I thought that not too long ago it was made "illegal" if you will for the fans to do that and that the team would receive a penalty for it, not sure if that is really the case or if it is enforced. I think that the zero tolerance thing has gone way too far with many many different issues. If you like it thats great, if not then you are certainly entitled to your opinion on that one too...not really a big deal.
I, personally...wouldn't touch one of those with a ten foot pole...and it was very interesting to read about the "preparation" of them, had no idea so much went into getting an octopus ready to throw onto the ice. EWWWWW!!!!!
I found out today that it years ago it was because it took 8 games to get the cup (8 wins) and since the octopus have 8 legs it just came about
Right. But since it now requires 16 games shouldn't it be updated? What about if instead of 2 octopi we just threw 4 dead puppies (or kittens, I suppose it could be up to the chucker) on the ice? That would make 16 legs and I'm sure the puppies/kittens could just be picked up from the local pound and their lives (or deaths) could have some meaning.
**Edit**
I just had an even better idea! We could throw the dead bodies of the people who get their jollies flinging dead animals around and the 16 required wins could be symbolized by the 16 iq points of said sickos.
Last edited by Rubberboots on Sat Jun 07, 2008 5:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
Some traditions don't need to linger, in my opinion.
Yes, these animals don't have the brain power of humans. They are still sentient beings. It amazes me that people don't have respect for other sentient beings. We have not been around (literally) as long as some of these animals we disrespect with our actions.
Could you imagine if another species came along with more power, braun, etc and decided we were worth nothing and could kill us for their amusement? We are on top of all the food chains here. You want to say it can't happen, so don't worry about it. But what if it could, and this new species treats us the way we treat our fellow Earthlings? Think about it.
(oh and I do love Hockey. I choose to do as little harm to other Earthlings as possible.)
I found out today that it years ago it was because it took 8 games to get the cup (8 wins) and since the octopus have 8 legs it just came about
Right. But since it now requires 16 games shouldn't it be updated? What about if instead of 2 octopi we just threw 4 dead puppies (or kittens, I suppose it could be up to the chucker) on the ice? That would make 16 legs and I'm sure the puppies/kittens could just be picked up from the local pound and their lives (or deaths) could have some meaning.
**Edit**
I just had an even better idea! We could throw the dead bodies of the people who get their jollies flinging dead animals around and the 16 required wins could be symbolized by the 16 iq points of said sickos.
ROFL....I don't get mad or angry at things, and I had to laugh at this one whether or not that was the desired outcome...sure...I like the whole dead body thing, but since throwing the people that threw the animals would require killing them first and I just can't go there...what about we just pick up some poor unfortunate nobodies at the county morgue?!?
As far as the puppies and kittens thing, not going there, but I think it is good that you considered that their lives would have meaning...what better way to die than to be a sacrifice for tradition ....and I see your point as an octopus is a "living" thing just like the puppies and kittens are even if they don't get the same consideration as the "cuter" ones.
In order to accommodate the 16 games that you have to win, I guess we could just tie their (the octopi) legs together and *poof* we have the necessary 16 legs...well maybe not since two of them would be tied together and it would only be 15. Hmm....how would we get around that, could we make the octopus into a 16 legged one just like they do for the superbowl with that turkey and all those legs?
I knew about the octopi thing for a long time...I didn't know that there was a reason behind it until I inquired into it today. I guess I just never really cared. I don't care if people do it, I am sure there isn't a shortage of octopi
There's no shortage of people either, yet every death is significant.
I knew about the octopi thing for a long time...I didn't know that there was a reason behind it until I inquired into it today. I guess I just never really cared. I don't care if people do it, I am sure there isn't a shortage of octopi
There's no shortage of people either, yet every death is significant.
People are not hunting up octopi to throw on the rink, from what I listened to in the report. It would be the same as if, perhaps, shrimp were bought and tossed out or hamburger patties... Chicken eggs even. Things that are breeded or hunted, sold and bought everyday.
Personally, I don't watch hockey, (or any sports in the last 20 years, since marrying into children and then having 5 more), but to compare a human's life to an octopi, that has already been hunted, killed and for sale... in my humble opinion, is assinine.
If you are a 100% vegetarian, (or will take a spider hanging from the ceiling, or an ant crawling in your kitchen and capture it and carry it outside to a bush), then I humbly apologize.
I can not figure out how to post a video. If you are interested look up" octopus eats shark" it is on a number of different sights including the PBS Nature show and You Tube.
I agree with what Queen Thunderhead said. Exactly as she she said it.
I can tell you that when a "swarm" of octopi come through our area (in the thousands ) they eat everything (horse conchs, welks [all kinds of mollusks], crabs, lobster, clams, fish...etc. ). The list is too long. They are at the top of the food chain. I am not saying the fact that they are a fierce predator makes it okay to just do one in for the sake of it. But that is not what is going on here, as far as I can tell.
They are the clam farmers and crabbers worse nightmare.
"IMHO the throwing of it on the ice IS a tradition"
Is that right? Then why sanitize "it"? Why not call "it" what "it" is?
Of course the three questions above are rhetorical. You answered the questions before they were ever asked.
YES that IS correct as are ALL of my opinions.
If I answered all three questions then why post 3 rhetorical ones? Are you trying to draw ME into this argument?
Since we are asking Rhetorical Questions...Why use the word "(CENSORED)" twice to describe the OCTOPUS (there I spelled it out happy?) Tradition? Seems a little incongruous.
Edited by LadyZ on Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:55 am: removed word
Since that word was edited 24 hours ago I removed it also from the above post. It is not part of this debate (the use of the word was explained earlier but also removed - and any further references will also be removed, thanks, this is a G/PG rated forum You are welcome to ask the question via PM if you just still have the burning desire to know the answer!). Also here is a gentle nudge to stay with the topic and not debate the person; we seem to be getting away from that here.
BTW Misterchipper, this is a debate, you are not "drawn into an argument". Debate or don't, that's your choice.
QT, I do take issue to the use of the word asinine...I do not in any way equate the life of the octopi to a human's but already explained why I feel it is wrong. They may be already killed and for sale but IMO that is irrelevant as well, as is the fact that they are a pest to fishermen / whoever. Kill them as pests if you must. Killing them is not the issue to me - it's the compete disrespect that is shown through the act of throwing them onto the ice - and the waste. It is wrong IMO to kill animals, pests or not, for fun and use their dead bodies as entertainment. Hey, that's what the Romans used to do! And it was "tradition", too!
I know there are people who disagree with killing life in any form - usually that is a religious viewpoint - you still call that asinine? "devoid of intelligence; inane; mindless; vacuous" - seems a bit harsh in these PC times; LOL I may think that about someone's views but I doubt I would say it out loud. Did anyone in this debate even state that opinion?
Miss Bonnie, I had wondered why you had earlier just post "you have to be kidding" or whatever. Thanks for coming back to contribute. As I said I have no problem with killing pest animals. IMO that is an entirely separate issue. That does not in any way make this "game" OK. I have mice in my shed - shall I kill them then throw them out onto an arena somewhere? (I do set out poision for them BTW! Killing them is not the issue!) How about the cockroaches (ick, I kill them too) in the school gym? If you feel that would be either right or wrong, please explain your thought processes, because using your argument it's the same thing in principle.
Yeah, I know, it's "tradition" - it also used to be "tradition" to call people witches and burn them at the stake and to buy and sell human beings because it was accepted that their race made this socially acceptable...and any number of other atrocities committed from olden days through to current times. ***Please note I am not comparing tossing octopi with slavery etc***. In other words, I have no respect for the word "tradition"; there is right and there is wrong and we as humans should be above doing wrong in the name of "tradition".
Interesting there have been no comments yet to my idea of using fake octopi. Wouldn't that actually solve everything?
Well, almost everything...I would like to address the fact that it IS illegal to throw them. I like the penalty idea, but I'm guessing that is not done here. I personally believe that if it really bothered the PTB they would do something about it. Nothing like having a law that is winked at - way to teach respect for other laws - means we only have to obey them if we like them! But then I suppose that's a whle 'nother debate.
Are there any other animals who kill other ones strictly for fun? Maybe we're not as high above them as we like to think.
People are not hunting up octopi to throw on the rink, from what I listened to in the report.
What ultimately happens to the animal becomes the reason for its death. It's akin to why you don't buy those cute little puppies from pet stores who are supplied by puppy mills. You may be saving that puppy but you're dooming his/her replacement by creating a market for puppy mills to supply.
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to compare a human's life to an octopi ... is assinine
Until you can produce a life from scratch then who are you to decide which one is of more worth? And it's thinking like that that is the cause of most of the worlds problems: Humans > Octopi; Whites > Blacks; Christians > Muslims; Men > Women! Or does it stop one short of that because then you're on the lesser end ... and that's just going too far!
Before you misinterpret and/or misrepresent the point, I'll summarize it: Value is subjective. Your life (and all the lives of all your family) are as worthless to the octopi as theirs are to you.
I can not figure out how to post a video. If you are interested look up" octopus eats shark" it is on a number of different sights including the PBS Nature show and You Tube.
I saw it months ago. Fascinating! Who would have ever guessed the outcome! What's your point?
Quote:
I can tell you that when a "swarm" of octopi come through our area (in the thousands ) they eat everything (horse conchs, welks [all kinds of mollusks], crabs, lobster, clams, fish...etc. ). The list is too long.
O.........M............G!!!!! How DARE they!!! Those malicious (fatherless children)!
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They are at the top of the food chain. I am not saying the fact that they are a fierce predator makes it okay to just do one in for the sake of it.
Then why bring it up, and what exactly are you saying?
Quote:
They are the clam farmers and crabbers worse nightmare.
Yeah, and Abraham Lincoln was the slave traders. What's your point?
"IMHO the throwing of it on the ice IS a tradition"
Is that right? Then why sanitize "it"? Why not call "it" what "it" is?
Of course the three questions above are rhetorical. You answered the questions before they were ever asked.
YES that IS correct as are ALL of my opinions.
If I answered all three questions then why post 3 rhetorical ones? Are you trying to draw ME into this argument?
Since we are asking Rhetorical Questions...Why use the word "(CENSORED)" twice to describe the OCTOPUS (there I spelled it out happy?) Tradition? Seems a little incongruous.
First of all, if this is an argument then you drew yourself in by posting in it. By posting a comment you agree to have it addressed by anybody who cares to.
Are you really completely clueless as to why rhetorical questions get asked? If so then you're welcome for opening up a whole new dimension of discourse.
I had little doubt that you could spell and/or write out octopus. I just found it interesting that you didn't. Any armchair psychologist will get what I'm saying.
) It may not be the most eloquent of responses, but it sums up what I think about it ... and the people who do it:
We could throw the dead bodies of the people who get their jollies flinging dead animals around and the 16 required wins could be symbolized by the 16 iq points of said sickos. 
....and I see your point as an octopus is a "living" thing just like the puppies and kittens are even if they don't get the same consideration as the "cuter" ones.
You are welcome to ask the question via PM if you just still have the burning desire to know the answer!). Also here is a gentle nudge to stay with the topic and not debate the person; we seem to be getting away from that here.
